The Long Strange Trip - Episode 18: The 4 E's of Wisdom: Embodied, Embedded, Active, Extended with Adam Hansen

About the Episode:

Wisdom Isn't What I Thought It Was

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about wisdom. I turn 73 tomorrow, and you’d think by now I’d have a trunk full of it—neatly organized and ready to hand out. But the truth is, I’m still just as stuck and curious as the next guy.

I recently spent some time talking with Adam Hansen. If you don't know Adam, he’s one of those rare people who actually seems to have metabolized his experiences rather than just collecting them like old receipts. We got into the weeds on what wisdom actually is, and honestly, his take caught me off guard.

Have you ever noticed how we treat wisdom like it’s a destination? Like we’re all just hiking toward some mountain peak where everything finally makes sense?

Grace for the Messy Parts

Adam said something that’s been rattling around in my head: wisdom is "grace applied to imperfection."

I love that. It’s not about being right or having the perfect framework. It’s about creating space for the fact that we—and everyone around us—are going to mess up. I’ve spent forty years in business trying to be "effective," but I suspect I might have missed the grace part along the way.

Are we intentional enough to actually learn from our mistakes, or are we just moving too fast to notice them? Adam suggests that wisdom doesn't just happen because you've had a lot of birthdays. It happens when you stop to actually digest what happened to you.

The Curiosity Trap

We often think wisdom is the end of questioning—that once you’re "wise," you have the answers. But Adam argues it’s actually the opposite. Without curiosity, wisdom just turns into a rigid worldview, and that’s a dangerous place to be.

• Humility is the gatekeeper. You can't learn anything if you're already full of yourself.

• Playing with ideas. Why do we get so serious as we get older? Adam talks about keeping a "playful" attitude toward learning, which feels a lot better than the heavy, "navel-gazing" I usually do.

Seeing Through Other Eyes

We also touched on social intelligence. It’s a fancy term, but Adam frames it through E Pluribus Unum—out of many, one.

In a world that feels more polarized every time I turn on the news, the ability to actually empathize with a perspective that isn't mine feels like the only way out. If we lose our curiosity about other people, we don't just lose connection—we lose the chance to grow.

What I’m Taking Away

I don’t have this figured out. I teach this stuff, and yet I still find myself reacting with judgment instead of grace more often than I’d like to admit. But here’s what I’m chewing on today:

• Wisdom is grace applied to imperfection. It’s patient.

• Reflection is the engine. If we don't look back, we can't move forward.

• Stay curious. The minute you think you know it all, you've stopped being wise.

It’s an ongoing journey, and I’m realizing there is no finish line. That's a bit disconcerting, isn't it? But maybe that's the point.

If you’re interested in hearing the actual nuances of the conversation, you can listen to the full talk with Adam here. I'd love to know what you think.

Do you feel like you’re gaining wisdom as the years go by, or just more questions?



Transcription:


Introduction (Josh)

Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm Josh. the host of the show.   We're going to dig into six areas together, finding real work-life integration. Instead of that brutal 9 to 5 5 split too many business owners to live with.   We're going to approach retirement as an actual reinvention. Rather than just stopping work.   and we're facing death honestly, and avoiding PTSD around it.   We're also building resilience,

when life throws us curve balls.   We're sharing wisdom across generations.  And finally, we're understanding the patterns that show up in all our transitions.  I'm  not coming at this as an expert I'm a fellow traveler figuring this stuff out in real time.

 Especially now as I navigate my own dual cancer diagnosis at 73. 

Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm glad you're here.

Josh Patrick (00:00.952)

Hey, how are you today? This is Josh Patrick and you're at the Long Strange Trip podcast. And today we are in for a real treat. We have my friend Adam Hansen here. gosh, I met Adam, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago at some strange seminar on, I forgot what it was on, but we ended up sitting in the bar talking for about three or four hours. And his co-patriot who was sitting next to Adam,

I don't think understood three words we were saying, but it was one of the more interesting conversations I've had. And over the years, I've stayed in contact with Adam, and he's really one of the most interesting people I know, and one of the most wise people I know. So today, we're going to talk with Adam about the topic of wisdom. And I have no idea where it's going to go, but...

Adam Hansen (00:36.321)

Thank

Josh Patrick (00:55.382)

I'm going to bed will be someplace fun and for you and fun for me. So let's bring Adam on the show. Hey, Adam, how are you?

Adam Hansen (01:02.941)

Josh, if it got any better, I'd be just horribly equipped for it. Life is just an overabundance of wonderfulness and delight. And that might be a little delusional, but it works for me.

Josh Patrick (01:19.214)

Well, that's good. If you ask most people how are they, you'll get this noncommittal okay answer, which is what most people are probably feeling, which I think is a little bit too sad, but it is what it is.

Adam Hansen (01:36.289)

I mean, it's just some of the basic social niceties that we're instructed in. it never, that response never made a whole lot of sense to me.

Josh Patrick (01:45.214)

okay. Can you give me an example of that?

Adam Hansen (01:48.703)

Well, just it's again, it's it's a I'm no paragon of self awareness, as I say here cross arms. But but just.

I've always been interested in the things that we just accept, just like the basic assumptions that we make. I understand why most of them kind of played out the way they did, but it's a, I think, I think life can be really rich if you are just even 10 % more intentional.

Josh Patrick (02:29.484)

Yeah, that makes sense to me. So our topic today is wisdom. So if somebody like me was to ask you, how do you gain wisdom, what would your answer be?

Adam Hansen (02:39.753)

Haha.

Adam Hansen (02:44.809)

I think.

Adam Hansen (02:49.877)

I think wisdom is kind of, it means a lot of things. It's grace applied to imperfection. And by grace, I don't mean any kind of sectarian grace, but just overall, just grace, just unearned merit. It's allowing space for others to kind of do their thing and realize, because we're all such finite,

creatures. We're all trying to figure this stuff out, you know, and so realizing that, I mean, we know how much we can feel that on our own behalf, and yet sometimes forget that others face the same dilemma. And so it's, I think grace applied to imperfection is a great, that's kind of my starting point. I think it's also about, you know, there's this idea that

wisdom comes with age and it certainly can and i certainly i'm wiser now than i was you know 30 years ago 40 years ago whatever but i think the real booster in that is not just aging and not just accumulating more experience but actually it's back to that sense of being intentional i think wisdom it can really be boosted by metabolizing

experience and by

Josh Patrick (04:19.854)

So when you say metabolizing experience, can you give us a definition of that?

Adam Hansen (04:26.477)

Yeah. Let's say I'm talking to anyone, know, could be a business partner, it could be a family member, whatever. Conversation didn't go really well for some reason, and I'm not sure why, but kind of in the heat of the moment, we know that that's often, that's, you know, we're going geeky now, folks. We're going into neurology here.

In the heat of the moment, that stuff is often coming from the amygdala, like our fear center, our fight or flight. When the amygdala is triggered, the prefrontal cortex, the wiser part of us tends to be, amygdala just says, yeah, can go take a nap, prefrontal cortex. And I'm going to.

I'm going to take over now. that the fear tends to limit options. It impels action, which is good. mean, if fear was everything we experience is there for a reason. so fear, that's not to be construed as a negative. It's information, but we need to understand the mechanics of it and it does what it does. And so

conversation with a loved one or whomever didn't go all that great, just taking even, you know, Josh, three minutes to think it over and kind of replay it and kind of revise it maybe in our own mind and, and say, yeah, if I'd made these two small choices, it would have made a real difference. And it's not, it's not giving up our own agency.

prematurely, it's not assuming that we're just subject to all the forces and, you know, events around us. But I'm just kind of pontificating now. Did that answer that? At least make a start.

Josh Patrick (06:35.466)

It made a start. wisdom, I believe, generally comes with age, but age does not automatically create wisdom.

Adam Hansen (06:50.145)

I was just having this conversation with a friend earlier today. You know, the, I was always skeptical of the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks. And I said, I get what's going on there, but I don't know if age is necessarily the variable there. I think it's more about curiosity. And I would agree. can eat. It's less likely you're going to be able to teach an in curious dog new tricks.

Josh Patrick (07:14.862)

Well, one of the things that I think which is a key, and I'm not sure this is 100 % true because we're doing an investigation here, is that wisdom without curiosity cannot exist.

Adam Hansen (07:23.68)

Yes.

Adam Hansen (07:30.625)

I think it's dead on. The big three for me are curiosity and that probably starts with humility. Humility, curiosity, and then never letting the kind of an unquenchable light of play be extinguished from us. Play isn't a kid thing.

wisdom isn't necessarily an old person thing. We all know, and just a way to bust the age and wisdom thing is, can we all think of younger people who are wise? Can we all think of older people who aren't necessarily all that wise?

Josh Patrick (08:07.63)

Yes, I have a son who's wise. And he's 40.

Josh Patrick (08:15.764)

I know lots of older, more probably people are not wise. I most older people are, they're stuck into their worldview.

Adam Hansen (08:25.641)

Yeah, yeah. worldview too quickly becomes the next step from just basic worldview is identity. And now that's not just how I see things. That is me. And now everything that happens to me is going to be shot through that lens. And I, man, I don't want to be captive to some self concept like that. I think it's helpful to always to be ready to trade up.

Josh Patrick (08:43.053)

Yes.

Adam Hansen (08:55.165)

and realize that we are works in action. And the moment that we believe that that's not the case, well, then physical death is just kind of the...

Josh Patrick (08:55.224)

Well, this point.

Josh Patrick (09:05.582)

Are we, do we respect others as human beings is a good starting place. Because what I see in today's world is the far left, everybody in the far right is a terrible human being no matter what you say. And on the far right, the MAGA folks, everybody on the left is even worse. So, and they're stuck in that place.

Adam Hansen (09:10.367)

Yeah.

Josh Patrick (09:31.886)

And I think it's because they have zero curiosity about the others.

Adam Hansen (09:38.561)

Yeah, well, it's what's the like, what is the emotional payoff for you to see those other people that way? And I guess here in the United States, I would say, look, made some basic agreements, you the founding of the country and everything. And we have this Latin motto, a pluribus unum. And do we actually believe that?

Like, do we think from many, one? And do we think that because of the many, because of the difference in views and experiences and backgrounds and, and, know, everything from how we were raised to how we were taught to get along with others and everything, it's the sum total of all those different perspectives that can make this really amazing. And, we are stronger when we remember.

a pluribus unum and not just unum, unum, unum.

Josh Patrick (10:42.638)

I think that makes a lot of sense. So I would consider you a pretty wise guy. Not as a wise guy, but as a person who has gained a ton of wisdom over their lifetime. And well, I think it's pretty much, I would say it's pretty obvious anybody spends any time with you, but that's...

Adam Hansen (10:44.683)

Yeah.

Adam Hansen (10:51.573)

Well, listen how you say that. am a wise guy.

Adam Hansen (11:02.205)

That's kind of you.

Josh Patrick (11:09.346)

you know, my opinion and maybe I'm wrong because I have been before.

I think that one of the things that you said, know, humility is an important part of wisdom. think vulnerability is also another keystone of it. If you're not willing to be vulnerable, you're not going to be very wise because you're pretty much fixed into your beliefs.

Adam Hansen (11:23.102)

Yeah.

Adam Hansen (11:33.985)

Yeah, and like what are you what is it exactly that you're protecting like why and What's the what's the need for protection there? What what bets are you making about? How the universe is constructed they have to have this defensive posture and and uh just a little bit of a reflection on who we are like just If you're gonna if you're gonna get caught in identity go back to

who we are as a species and we're that badass strain of DNA that can hack any environment. You don't see the disparities in no other species do you see the equivalence of a Simone Biles and a Django Reinhardt and a, just pick your list of.

geniuses of disparate talents. And you don't see anything like that in any other species. And we are, that's kind of like, I think that the reason why good old Carl Linnaeus back in the day, probably the reason why he coined the species name for us as homo sapiens sapiens, is it because it was the enlightenment and thinking, know, intelligence.

was really at a premium then. And I get it. think homo sapiens, sapiens, like just to make it really clear, sapiens and sapiens.

Josh Patrick (13:09.048)

Thank you very much.

Adam Hansen (13:10.401)

Well, our name is fully homo sapiens sapiens. And the last one is like the lowest taxonomic level, right? But I think if we could reclassify ourselves, think a a species name that I think better describes who we are, I think is homo faber, making. Making, so the kind of inventive.

Josh Patrick (13:14.092)

Yes.

Josh Patrick (13:34.776)

which means...

Josh Patrick (13:39.787)

Okay.

Adam Hansen (13:39.903)

homo faber socialis. And our social intelligence is off the charts compared to any other species. Other animals do have some social intelligence and everything. It's how they organize. how, you know. But pre-verbal babies, pre-verbal human babies learn from each other. Like you just don't see, I don't know that you see pups necessarily getting a whole lot from each other.

Josh Patrick (13:42.819)

Yeah.

Josh Patrick (14:00.802)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Patrick (14:09.142)

I think puppies actually do learn from each other, but not at the level of human beings.

Adam Hansen (14:12.257)

Yeah, yeah. And there's just so much that we pick up on. was a there's just this this great Joe Hendrix book, The Secret of Our Success, makes that point that talks about the the research that compared an orangutan, but a chimp and a human toddler and compared them on quantitative, spatial.

Adam Hansen (14:42.005)

And there are two other types. Social was one of them. can't remember what the fourth intelligence was. But the human toddler, the chimp, and the orangutan were pretty much tracking on the first three. And then it was on social intelligence where even the human toddler just put so much distance between it and the other two species.

Josh Patrick (14:46.669)

Yeah.

Josh Patrick (14:58.04)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Hansen (15:10.313)

And so I think this Joe's book was social intelligence or culture is, is the secret of our success as a species. And I think that's, that's interesting to me. And so how do I, how can I always increase my social intelligence? How can I become more effective? How can I become more empathetic? How can I, you know, as long as we have these pesky humans with their blasted feelings, you know,

We probably ought to be paying attention to how we can be more empathetic, how we can increase our intelligence is just the ability to act, right? So how do we increase our capability to act by being more empathetic? I don't think I'm ever going to have the final answer on that.

Josh Patrick (15:55.149)

So.

Josh Patrick (15:59.373)

I don't think there is a final answer on that. I think it's an ongoing investigation, which is wonderful for us because that's what we do here and we investigate. And, you know, it's really interesting that there's an awful lot of people who are stuck in where they are. And it's really sad because there's a great big world out there which you could be curious about.

Adam Hansen (16:08.981)

That's right.

Josh Patrick (16:24.3)

And there's a great big world out there that might have different ways of looking at things than you do. And that goes for both the left and the right, by the way. It's not just a right thing that left people think.

Adam Hansen (16:30.623)

Yeah.

Adam Hansen (16:38.027)

Well, you put your finger on it. mean, the moment that we overassign virtue or capability or whatever to one particular identification, then I mean, come on. Yeah, we act according to maps of reality, not reality itself, because we can't, no one of us can fully take in just

full reality, but some maps are better than other maps. And the maps that consistently place those other people over in the side of what we don't want, that's a really low resolution map. You can find the evidence, sure, but you're not looking hard at all for the evidence that contravenes where you're going with that.

Josh Patrick (17:34.168)

Right, right. You one of my favorite questions would be what would happen if? And one of my favorite sayings, which is an NLP saying, I think, is the map is not the territory.

Adam Hansen (17:47.359)

Map is not the territory. Yeah. But we can't operate without a map. So we do need to have that. It can be extremely helpful. But we should just as.

Josh Patrick (17:52.11)

That's true.

Adam Hansen (18:01.087)

I mean, we should probably always question our maps. We should never get too satisfied with them. We should never believe that we have kind of the ultimate stranglehold on reality with them. being open, know, was the supposedly, was it Longfellow or Wadsworth, whoever said, you be curious, not judgmental. It was for those fans of the TV show, Ted Lasso.

Josh Patrick (18:05.794)

We sure it.

Josh Patrick (18:25.09)

Yes.

Adam Hansen (18:30.421)

Just a great episode where Ted kind of lays that out and proceeds to kick someone's butt in a dart game.

Josh Patrick (18:38.378)

You know, that is my favorite scene from that show. Yeah, it is like the best scene of all times.

Adam Hansen (18:41.569)

Isn't that great?

Adam Hansen (18:45.919)

Yeah, was, it was, it was, was orchid. was just choreographed. think it's maybe the better term is choreographed so exquisitely, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, keeping that openness. It's keeping.

Josh Patrick (18:53.442)

Yeah, that show is exquisite.

Adam Hansen (19:01.255)

No one said that we had to have everything totally pinned down before we could take action. You know, it's in the moving that we get the insight that we gain the wisdom. And so one of things I'd say about wisdom is that it is, it's, there's a, it's constructing in neuroscience called four E cognition. I'll just do this quickly. Nerd alert. So cognition.

It's for ease. it's embodied, meaning that cognition isn't just a brain in a vat. Cognition is also out to the ends of our arms and fingertips and how we move and everything. it's embodied, it's embedded in our contexts, in our groups, in our, in everything around us. It's inactive, meaning that wisdom that isn't demonstrated through doing something can't really be thought of as wisdom all that well.

And lastly, it's extended. It's extended through the tools we use, through those same groups that we choose to affiliate with, but there's a multiplier effect. And so I think wisdom and cognition are both all of those four things.

Josh Patrick (20:18.072)

So when someone is exhibiting wisdom, where does that come from?

Adam Hansen (20:25.473)

Well,

I mean, I don't know a wise person who hasn't had some heartbreak. I don't know a wise person who hasn't had some pretty big reversals of fortune, know, who hasn't been. And, you know, we have the whole metaphor of those bad experiences potentially being a crucible where, you know,

Josh Patrick (20:36.834)

Yes.

Josh Patrick (20:47.47)

Yeah.

Adam Hansen (20:59.061)

where we can actually forge something better. Again, it's back to metabolizing. What do we do with all those experiences? Do we just let them make us embittered? we let them prevent us from exploring? What are we going to do? It's going to happen. So what are you going to do with it? If you can see it as fodder, if you can see it as a crucible and as, you know.

Use all the metaphors. I like to mix metaphors in really weird ways all the time, can those reversals be fuel? I think the answer is yes. And I think that is, it's not so much what happens, but what are you gonna do with it?

Josh Patrick (21:43.575)

Yeah, I think that's a really important point is that all of us have bad things that happen to us in our life. And how many of us ask very simple question, which is one of my favorite. What did I learn?

Adam Hansen (22:00.981)

Josh, that was just right where I was going. Wisdom is better questions, not having all the answers.

Josh Patrick (22:06.818)

Yes, I don't think there's anything about having the answers that makes you wise. I think it's by asking better questions that you become wise and then you can share your wisdom through that method.

Adam Hansen (22:19.719)

Well, it's moral, it's moral development, being able to, you know, we all grow up and everything is at the right point. start learning the norms of our culture and the groups that we act in and everything. But then the next step is to be able to norm the norms, to think critically about the norms and go, well, I can see why this would be a norm and how in. Shoot, maybe 98 % of the time, that's really the thing to do. We shouldn't spend too much of our life.

Josh Patrick (22:34.007)

Yes.

Adam Hansen (22:50.149)

over indexing on edge cases, but there are edge cases and to be able to discern what's going on with an edge case so that we can pull back and say, wait a second.

Josh Patrick (23:02.222)

When you say an edge case, what do mean by that?

Adam Hansen (23:05.097)

Well, in any, you know, the, the normal, the bell-shaped curve, the normal distribution, you know, that applies to so much of life. We're going totally nerdy here, but yeah, there is the mean and that's where, you know, we, learn an awful lot from, but I'm always interested in, if there's an examination of the tails in the normal distribution, it's human nature to go kind of to the negative tail, to the underperforming tail.

Josh Patrick (23:11.362)

Yeah.

Josh Patrick (23:15.35)

It does. It does.

Adam Hansen (23:35.437)

and put a lot of attention there, but I've always thought, you know, it's interesting that there's the high performing tail and a tail. I'm from a part of the country that doesn't make the distinction between TAIL and T-E-L-L. Sorry about that. But what's happening at the high performance, you know, the term that's come out with some folks have done some work here is positive deviance. And so what's going on?

So these are people who face mostly the same conditions, situations and everything as everyone else in the distribution, but for whatever reason, they just get more out of it. They do produce better results.

Josh Patrick (24:18.478)

Well, the reason is I believe, and I may be wrong about this, but I believe that when one focuses on what's working, you get much better results than when one focuses on what's not working. And I have lived that for my entire business career. And it's one of my it's one of the tenants that I've lived by for a long time is that somebody makes a mistake. I don't ask them why.

Adam Hansen (24:32.307)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Josh Patrick (24:47.35)

I ask him, what did we learn?

Adam Hansen (24:49.343)

Yeah. And it's, mean, it's from the whole strengths, you know, work, you know, we all have these individual strengths and too much in business and too much in life effort is placed on what your deficiencies are. And you need to shore up your deficiencies just to the point where they don't, it's like drilling a hole in the hole of a boat. If you have a hole below the water line,

Yeah, you, you dang well better plug up that hole quickly and put some real effort on that because that's, that's life threatening. But if the hole in your hall is, you know, 20 feet above the waterline, may not be all that great looking, but you know, focus, focus more on what is working well. And the greatest gains are going to come from focusing on your strengths and building on what you're already good at and becoming increasingly just world.

Josh Patrick (25:33.101)

Yeah.

Josh Patrick (25:42.255)

I have asked this question to business owners and non-business owners for 30 years. What's more important, focusing on your strengths or fixing your weaknesses? And it is absolutely fascinating the answer is that almost 100 % of employees say fixing weaknesses and almost 100 % of owners say magnifying strengths. It's very interesting and I think I know why.

Adam Hansen (26:03.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Hansen (26:08.317)

isn't it interesting? Interesting.

because they've been through it.

Josh Patrick (26:12.842)

is that owners have their own, they control their own destiny. When you're working for somebody, the owner controls your destiny. So it's really easy because that's how we were brought up, is to focus on weaknesses and try to make them in the strengths and that never works well. So.

Adam Hansen (26:18.207)

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Hansen (26:22.688)

Yes.

Adam Hansen (26:34.453)

No, I would, I mean, no matter how much I would have worked on it. I mean, I was good at math, but the idea that I would have really excelled as an accountant, please.

Josh Patrick (26:47.15)

Somehow I don't see you as an accountant, but that's okay. So Adam, unfortunately, we are out of time. So my question, I know that you're a principal at IDS, ideas to go. And it's a really interesting company work with the top 50 fortune, fortune 50 companies with brand development. Am I correct?

Adam Hansen (26:49.281)

No.

Adam Hansen (26:55.233)

Josh.

Adam Hansen (27:09.621)

Well, it's yeah. And so it's, it's innovation, everything from new products, new services to new communications to whatever. Yeah.

Josh Patrick (27:19.106)

So you're a perfect person to do that sort of work.

Adam Hansen (27:22.463)

Well, you're very kind. Look, I feel so lucky to have found, you know, when as a man in my later 20s, it finally became clear to me that I could actually do an entire career in innovation. just thought, if I could, why, like, why wouldn't I? That's clearly, that's clearly where I should go.

Josh Patrick (27:45.282)

makes sense to me. So Adam, how would someone find you if they wanted to find you?

Adam Hansen (27:49.669)

please. Happy to connect with anyone on LinkedIn, just Adam Hansen, H-A-N-S-E-N. This face is on the profile. that's, you know, I'm sorry to reiterate that, but I'm also happy to just connect via email, adam.hansen at ideas2go.com, spelled out, no numeral, two for the to go. But I love engaging. I love talking about.

innovation. love talking about the variant of innovation that we practice called behavioral innovation, which is the connection with behavioral science. so life is just, life's too good not to work with great people on important projects.

Josh Patrick (28:30.644)

And.

Josh Patrick (28:38.52)

You know, my personal mission is to do interesting things with interesting people. So I have two things I'd like you to do. One is please rate and review this show. If you loved it, give us five stars. If you hated it, give us one star. And I'll just cry a little bit. And I may even do it on camera so you can be amused, but probably not. And the second thing is if this topic

Adam Hansen (28:44.149)

Totally it.

Adam Hansen (28:49.067)

You bet.

Adam Hansen (29:02.881)

you

Josh Patrick (29:06.38)

or any of the topics we've talked about in the Long Strange Trip podcast, tickle your interest. Send me an email jpatrick at stage2solution.com. That's the number two in Solution is Singular. jpatrick at stage2solution.com. And we'll set up a time to talk and see if the Long Strange Trip podcast is right for you. So this is Josh Patrick. We're with Adam Hansen. You're at the Long Strange Trip podcast.

Thanks a lot for stopping by. I hope you come back again and visit us. It'll be a lot of fun. Bye, mate.

Adam Hansen (29:41.611)

Josh, thanks so much. See ya.

Outro:

Thanks for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate you being part of this journey. I'd be grateful if you leave an honest rating and review. It helps other people find these conversations. Lets me know what's landing with you and what isn't.  If you love this show, give us five stars, and if you hate it,  give it one star and I'll just cry a little bit. 

Keep asking the hard questions, keep being honest about what's difficult, and remember.  We're all just trying to figure this out together.

 I'll talk to you next time on the Long Strange Trip. Thanks for stopping by.