The Long Strange Trip - Episode 17: The Hidden Power of Resilience in Business and Life with Susan Schramm
About the Episode:
Risk, Resilience, and Moving the Needle: A Chat with Susan Schramm
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about why we get so paralyzed when it’s time to actually do something new. We have the plan, we have the "big idea," but then we hit this wall of hesitation. It’s a feeling I know well—that sense of being stuck even when you’re supposed to be the one who knows what they’re doing.
I recently sat down with Susan Schramm, the author of Fast Track Your Big Idea. She’s spent years in the trenches of organizational strategy, and she helped me see risk through a lens that felt a lot more human and, frankly, a lot more manageable.
What are we actually afraid of?
When we hear the word "risk," most of us immediately think of danger. We think of loss. But Susan framed it differently: Risk is just the "unknowns" we hit when we try to change things.
If you’re like me, you’ve spent a lifetime building a "status quo" that feels safe. Stepping away from that is scary because our brains are wired to protect us from the dark. But if we don't step out, we don't grow. It makes me wonder: Is the risk of staying exactly where you are actually higher than the risk of moving forward?
It’s about people, not just spreadsheets
One thing Susan said really stuck with me. We spend so much time on the technical stuff—the budgets, the timelines, the data—that we completely ignore the human beings who have to actually execute the plan.
Who is being asked to change?
What are they afraid of losing?
Do we even know their "risk profile"?
I suspect we often fail because we treat people like cogs in a machine rather than individuals with their own fears and history. Susan suggests that a diverse team isn't just about skills; it's about having different "risk appetites" in the room. You need the person who wants to jump, but you also need the person who's worried about the landing.
How do we actually move?
I’ve found myself being quite ineffective lately, mostly because I’m overthinking the "big" move. Susan’s advice is a gentle nudge back to reality:
Try small experiments: Why does it have to be a giant leap? Can it be a low-stakes test first?
Talk about the fear: We try to act professional and stoic, but maybe if we just admitted we’re nervous, we could actually get to work.
Humility is a strategy: Leaders don't have to have all the answers. Sometimes the best thing we can do is listen to why our team is hesitant.
Some final thoughts
I turn 73 soon, and I’m realizing that my "runway" is getting shorter. I don’t have time to be paralyzed by the fear of the unknown anymore. Whether you’re running a company or just trying to figure out your next chapter, the risks are real—but so is the cost of doing nothing.
If you look at your "big idea" today, what’s the one small unknown you’re actually willing to face?
I don’t have the perfect answer yet. I’m still navigating my own transitions. But I think Susan is onto something—it’s much more about the people than the plan.
Transcription:
Introduction (Josh)
Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm Josh. the host of the show. We're going to dig into six areas together, finding real work-life integration. Instead of that brutal 9 to 5 5 split too many business owners to live with. We're going to approach retirement as an actual reinvention. Rather than just stopping work. and we're facing death honestly, and avoiding PTSD around it. We're also building resilience,
when life throws us curve balls. We're sharing wisdom across generations. And finally, we're understanding the patterns that show up in all our transitions. I'm not coming at this as an expert I'm a fellow traveler figuring this stuff out in real time.
Especially now as I navigate my own dual cancer diagnosis at 73.
Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm glad you're here.
Josh Patrick (00:01.026)
Hey, Howard, today this is Josh Patrick and you're at the Long Strange Trip podcast. My guest today is Susan Tram. Susan is an expert on risk. She's even written a book about it. I'm sure she'll tell us about as soon as she starts talking. So I think I'm going to stop talking and we'll bring Susan on and we'll find out about her book, first of all. And then we're going to go into the general topic of risk and resilience. Hey, Susan, how are you today?
Susan Schramm (00:28.879)
Hey, Josh, thanks for having me on this fascinating journey you're on.
Josh Patrick (00:32.92)
Well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. For those who don't know, and I'm assuming that's everyone, Susan and I have been in the Mastermind Group together for several years. And I've truly enjoyed getting to meet and understand Susan and understand what she does for work, which is kind of interesting. So, Susan, tell us about your book and what's the title?
Susan Schramm (00:56.901)
So I wrote a book called Fast Track Your Big Idea, and the subtitle is Navigate Risk, Move People to Action, and Avoid Your Strategy Going Off Course. And I wrote it because I was frustrated. I was frustrated after years of launching stuff, whether it was products or programs or companies or ecosystems or movements. I got frustrated that so many of them
would falter or get stuck or sometimes completely fizzle out. And after reflecting on it, I consult with organizations to help them launch initiatives. I said, how can we avoid these really great ideas that get stuck? And that's why I wrote the book, to lay out a plan, a practical guide to avoid common mistakes and.
and move people so that they work with you as you try to accomplish your big idea.
Josh Patrick (01:56.6)
So, let's talk about risk a little bit. Why is it people are so opposed to taking risks? And I'm not talking about giant risks. I'm talking about little risks.
Susan Schramm (02:09.837)
Well, I'm sure you have an opinion and I think we all know when we say the word risk, I'm going to say the word risk. What are the words that come to you immediately when I say that word?
Josh Patrick (02:23.086)
Opportunity, actually.
Susan Schramm (02:26.389)
Okay, well that's because you're an entrepreneur. When most people hear the word risk, they think of danger and caution, although they know intellectually there's a risk reward concept involved, that you can't get big gains unless you take some risk. But what I learned was that people often have to deal with unknowns. Unknowns create
a sense of caution, right? When you don't know something, that's how I define risk. Essentially, it's unknowns. Some are good, some are bad, but in all cases, it's something that you're going to have to plan for or deal with because it's to you at that moment, it's something still to be found out.
Josh Patrick (03:13.966)
So it seems to me that risk always involves change.
Susan Schramm (03:21.679)
fair because it's from a status quo of what you know to something that you don't know. Agree.
Josh Patrick (03:30.062)
Okay, so people are as adverse to change as they are risk. In which of the two do you think leads the people not wanting to take a risk or not wanting to change?
Susan Schramm (03:46.717)
boy. Now that's, you've obviously done a lot of thinking about what I have found is we're wired to be cautious, to plan for the scenario. Your brain is constantly trying to protect you. And to the extent that you have a scenario in your, in your mind that doesn't have a plan, your brain without a plan starts to get into fight or flight. So it's, it's, it's almost, it's a, it's a,
in some cases, an involuntary reaction to something where there's an unknown. And so change, I moved around a lot when I was a kid, and my parents were great at helping me see the positives of the opportunity of moving. But it always, that moment when we were saying, OK, we're moving again,
My parents were corporate nomads moving from town to town for business stuff. And that moment was always this, okay, what do we make of this? What do we do with this change? But that second, you're always protecting yourself. I don't know that, I I agree with you, change and risk are related. And I don't know what comes first because...
I guess the concept of change of any kind comes first, and then you're evaluating how it will affect you, and that's where the risk reward comes in.
Josh Patrick (05:17.165)
I have a theory. I theories about lots of things. But one just came to mind. I make up theories as we go along. So, this particular theory is I'm wondering, this is a question. Many people will take a big swing at something. They'll put tons of effort, tons of money, tons of time into something.
Susan Schramm (05:19.147)
I bet you do. I bet you do. Let's hear this one. OK.
Susan Schramm (05:28.195)
I love that about you.
Josh Patrick (05:47.566)
And then it doesn't work. And I think that happens when your children, when you're a child. And it sort of puts into your brain is that, well, risk is really bad because when I tried it before, it didn't work and it became kind of a personal disaster. I've always been of the, I'm a big fan of I call fail fast, fail cheap.
which is if you do small experiments and try small things, if they don't work out, it's really easy to back out. And you're really not taking that big of a risk. By the way, this is definitely true with successful business people. People think that people who own a successful business are big risk takers. Not true.
Susan Schramm (06:40.365)
Yeah, they're they're doing MVPs a lot. They figure out the minimum viable step. Well, let's make the parallel to when we're kids. We all learn to ride a bicycle. And bicycles, I think, are wonderful because they're cross cultural, cross age. Everybody knows what it feels like to, first of all, be tentative in riding a bicycle. I mean, just getting on a bicycle and making it balance for the first time is in itself a victory.
Josh Patrick (07:08.182)
Yes.
Susan Schramm (07:09.325)
And so you're right, we don't just jump on bicycles and zoom away. There's this obvious and accepted step-by-step process to take a little bit of risk at a time and learn from it. So you're right, I can see that parallel. Now, if you were to just say, I'm gonna, any major swings that you take to try something new.
that fail are always that whole, I remember being on a stage and being in a play in ninth grade and having a primary role and getting out there in the middle of the front for my solo and forgetting my lines. And my granddad was in the audience. And it was so funny because it was this long, long, long, long silence as the music kept going and I wasn't singing. I was, and finally I came back with the ending and
I ended up with this, da da da da da da da da da da da, and made a big dramatic ending. Got a great ovation, but my grandfather was horrified. He was so embarrassed for me that even though I felt like the crowd was with me and came alongside me, but he couldn't handle the fact that I made a mistake. And that issue of have I made a mistake?
And is it survivable? You're right. It stays with you, that fear of being the one that failed. Yeah, and I can see that if you measure yourself the rest of your life on that, if I take this risk, will I fail? It's a tough one. It comes back to haunt you.
Josh Patrick (08:53.741)
You know, the question I would have for you and your grandfather was, was his embarrassment about him or you?
Susan Schramm (09:01.699)
That's interesting.
Josh Patrick (09:03.021)
Because I have a similar story with my father. first time I did a public talk, I was probably 25, 24 years old. I was out in Reno, Nevada, speaking on something for a vending conference. At the end of the talk, he said to me, said, you know, that was pretty good, except one thing. So what's that? He said, don't tell jokes. You're not funny.
So the same thing was in my father who definitely was when my father would become the worst with me verbally not physically was when I made a mistake and he was embarrassed by my mistake and As children we don't know that And most times adults we never figure it out But the truth is we're not going back to IFS. We have a conversation about that before we started recording
Susan Schramm (09:42.169)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Susan Schramm (09:52.577)
Mm-hmm.
Josh Patrick (09:56.116)
is that was a that's a major piece of what I'm working on.
Susan Schramm (09:59.205)
Mm-hmm.
Josh Patrick (10:00.799)
So it just becomes, you we have to understand whose ox is being gored.
Susan Schramm (10:12.101)
Well, what I found interesting with many, of our great initiatives, I work with, you know, small companies getting started. I work with large organizations launching new initiatives, nonprofits, churches. They all have big ideas. They all have aspirations of great things to improve their corner of the world. But what they often skip, they figure out the product and the service. They figure out the financials, processes.
They often underestimate the human element of their strategy. What will make people take action? And it's this people side of risk that I find the most fascinating because we think of that as understood or accepted that people want things or do things or and that is probably where we're most we're the most vulnerable on the assumptions we're making about people.
Josh Patrick (10:51.521)
So.
Josh Patrick (11:02.541)
So what have you learned from that?
Susan Schramm (11:05.935)
What I've learned is to early on identify who has to take action for this big idea to become a reality. And why would they? What risk are they taking to work with you?
Josh Patrick (11:22.529)
So how do you overcome the risk? How do you get them to take action?
Susan Schramm (11:28.185)
Well, okay. Well, the first thing is acknowledging that who all needs to get stuff done, because I think most people, I worked in tech for decades. I worked with major fortune 500 companies launching wonderful things that now networks that now run our world. And, and so much of our energy was on the tech, but this idea of acknowledging from the beginning who has to do something new.
to make this successful is what I first now put down on paper because when someone has to do something new, they're that kid riding on a bicycle. They don't wanna look stupid. They have to change the way they do things. don't feel comfortable. That acknowledgement of the wide range of people who might have to do something new is the first step. And then this point about the risk profiles. The fact is...
I work with wonderful innovators like you, you think constantly about new ways of solving problems. That profile is much more likely to not see risk in the same way and engage quicker. So the awareness of risk is a little less fearful and the engagement is more likely. But there are a lot of people who have different experiences and different attributes and skills and they have different risk profiles and they might be very aware of risks, looking around all the time about it.
but not being willing to engage. And what I'm realizing is building a team of people with different risk profiles is actually great. It helps you anticipate, scan, adapt, if you're acknowledging that they also need to be able to manage the risk in their way. And I think that's a humility of leadership, helping really visionary people get clearer and more humble.
about what it takes to make their ideas success is really where I spent some time.
Josh Patrick (13:28.289)
What do do to make her more humble?
Susan Schramm (13:30.533)
Some of it is going back to which risks have they taken and why didn't they? mean, just the lessons is a good space. Then what I've been doing recently a lot is this risk profile, walking in the shoes of other people, right? Taking their four or five key people in their head who they really want to take action and then walking in their shoes and say, how would working with you be a risk for them?
Reputational risk, financial risk, time risk, comfort, right? Just the dimensional nature of, and many of our leaders, think often they can't even imagine. Why would anybody, they think of this as Debbie Downer or they don't just, they just don't get it, right? The team that just doesn't get it is frustrating to them a lot of times. So if you help them see Debbie Downer or Dave Downer in a new way,
from the point of view of their risk profile, it opens doors to approach it and approach the conversations in your way and be more patient, to be honest.
Josh Patrick (14:41.127)
That's something that innovators have little of as a rule. Yeah, as a rule, it's a real challenge. often you get into this fight where you have somebody who is typically from the finance department and they're historians by nature, which means they tend to go slowly about how they look at everything.
Susan Schramm (14:44.953)
Zero negative patients exactly. Right.
Josh Patrick (15:09.107)
actually spend all their time figuring out what's wrong with this idea, not what's right with this idea.
Susan Schramm (15:14.329)
And it's so easy to get defensive in that way. What I think we underestimate though, is if we haven't anticipated or at least dealt with what those objections are, even in a what if scenario to calm their brains down, when it comes down to the really executing, they're gonna hesitate. And so when you're trying to move on very, very fast pace, and these people still have a lot of questions in their head, you can either...
Josh Patrick (15:17.474)
Yes.
Susan Schramm (15:40.921)
Pay me now or pay me later, as they used to say, right? And so really encouraged, lots of different ways you can do it. I love the primordium concept where you actually take the, you you take the great idea and everybody gets to show up to the movie, throw popcorn and say, you know, what's going to really destroy this thing? And people somehow can talk more openly in that environment because the biggest danger to a innovative visionary leader is people going, sure boss, no prob.
Josh Patrick (15:49.067)
yeah, I do too.
Josh Patrick (16:02.061)
Yep.
Susan Schramm (16:10.157)
Everybody good on this? boss says? Are we all good? yeah, we're all good. Or silence. That's the danger.
Josh Patrick (16:15.502)
Yeah. Here's what I think needs to be added to the mix with risk, especially with visionary entrepreneurs or visionary business owners. I'm not sure I would say I'm not a big fan of the term entrepreneur, but that's another conversation that you need to have a lot. I mean, a lot of resilience because you're leading the charge.
and you're getting arrows in your back and they're coming from all sorts of different directions. And if you don't have a strong resilience gene working in you, there's a pretty good chance you're going to give up or fire people and keep starting over and over again. I have a friend who owns a business and that's what she does. She never says, gee, maybe I need to learn how to hire. She keeps changing people and she's out leading the charge.
And she's got, she doesn't have enough resilience and she teaches resilience, by the way. She doesn't have enough resilience to work through the issue and understand what happens so it doesn't happen again.
Susan Schramm (17:28.975)
You know, I'd just add to that. It's also critical to build a resilient team. So one of the things I recognized is a resilient team is one that knows things are going to change. know, they're aware of it. They're scanning for it. They're comfortable with it. This plan is guess. Look, let's be honest. Every strategy is a guess.
Josh Patrick (17:35.127)
Yes.
Susan Schramm (17:56.183)
And immediately after launching the strategy, something in your assumptions are going to change. But if you're aware and you could create a culture of people that just go, yep, okay, so let's look at this week's risk changes and adapt, adapt, adapt. You have a group of people with you who can adapt versus you with this huge mantle of resilience. I just say it's hard to be resilient alone.
You know, because that's, it's very more comforting if had a group of people who can see things with you. encourage, you know, that, you know, when I started studying this, I started doing a lot of research on what makes things. Well, Boston Consulting Group talks about scanning. So many companies get flummoxed by big disruptions. What are the companies that don't? Well, they have a scanning gene. They have a what if gene.
And that what-if-ing that makes a regular part of their routine allows them to be adaptive, you're talking about. Shuck and jive, okay, we talked about that, that might happen. It's similar to something we talked about earlier, so it's a skill.
Josh Patrick (19:10.158)
It seemed to me they would also need a mistake gene. There's a real challenge, and this comes with change and risk, is that we don't want to take risks because we make mistakes. And we've been taught from when we were very, very young that mistakes are bad. I ask people all the time, say, if you learned anything, where do you learn it from? And they always say mistakes in some way or another.
Susan Schramm (19:27.535)
Yeah.
Susan Schramm (19:36.501)
Right.
Josh Patrick (19:39.756)
I'm a big fan of Buckminster following had two statements about mistakes. I one was mistakes are learning opportunities into you don't learn less.
Susan Schramm (19:50.928)
Well, you know, I had the most, the best leadership development session I was ever part of was when I was part of a global organization. We all had to show up and present our results for the year. And it was, and we, and there's lots of dashboards and I was on the part of the dashboard with a lot of red. And it was a difficult meeting. And suddenly the person facilitating the leader.
Josh Patrick (19:51.244)
Susan Schramm (20:18.937)
the leading the meetings stopped and said, because a lot of us were had made mistakes that year we felt. And he said, look, this isn't going well. He says, let's stop and talk about mistakes. And the room went silent. And he said, if we don't get learnings from these mistakes, we don't get a return on investment.
If we keep making mistakes, we just keep losing. The only way we're going to get an ROI on these if we talk about our mistakes. So he says, let me tell you mine for this year. And he started with his mistake and what he learned. And he says, I want everyone to write this down. This, this, don't do this. And then we went around the room and everybody started becoming more like, like scientists saying, what can we learn from that? Where was that applied to our organizations? It was the most humbling.
but energizing conversation I was ever part of. And it was all based on that mistakes.
Josh Patrick (21:21.454)
my food service vending company, about six or seven years in, I realized that yelling at people about mistakes was not useful. So I had read a bunch of Buckminster Fuller, gone through a few new age workshops, was in the process of becoming a blamer to actually showing personal responsibility. And around that time, I decided I was going to try and experiment. When someone made a mistake,
I might call him into my office or I might just talk to him in the hallway. And instead of saying, why did you do that? I asked him, what did they learn?
Susan Schramm (21:59.589)
Mm-hmm.
Perfect. Perfect. What a tone change.
Josh Patrick (22:05.294)
Yes. And I did that for years. And after about seven or eight years, the culture in our company changed when someone made a mistake, they would admit it and they would immediately say, this is what I think I learned. Now, what I tell people when you start doing this, here's what's going to happen. You're going to go to somebody and say, what did I learn? going to say, I don't know. And then you say, my next question to them would be, well, if you didn't know, what would it be?
And they still might say, I don't know. Then I would go to my third level, which always worked. I said, here's what I want you to do. I want you to make up an answer about what you learned, whether it's true or not. I don't really care. And guess what? That will be what they learned. And I made sure I didn't yell at them. said, great, let's make a change in our system. So it doesn't happen again. This is W. Deming stuff.
Susan Schramm (22:51.329)
you
Josh Patrick (23:05.368)
who was a quality control guru from the 30s. And he would always say, said, it's not the employee's fault, it's the manager's fault, and most likely you have a bad system. Fix your system. And that's what lean is all about. Lean manufacturing and all of these process control stuff essentially is, what do you do to fix your system? And you have to make mistakes okay. At least that's my...
Susan Schramm (23:32.847)
Yeah. Wonderful.
Josh Patrick (23:35.598)
And if you do that, you're likely to have a happier life personally. And the other person is going to feel appreciated, not attacked.
Susan Schramm (23:47.299)
Right. And see it from the point of view of development. And if they know that something that they came across or did could actually be an improvement to a system instead of just a one-off, it's a culture of continuous improvement and having an impact. So it's great. I appreciate that one. That's a great. I think I love the last line. Make it up.
Josh Patrick (23:59.34)
Yes.
Susan Schramm (24:14.245)
Because you're right, there was this moment, as I was sitting around under the gun going, what am going to say about why our numbers were bad and everything? It does cause you to reflect on two things. You reflect on what happened and what should have happened, but you also reflect on your own part in it. And that's scary part, isn't it? It's that accountability you talked about. I made a mistake, I personally have failed. I'm a failure. The mistake was made.
Josh Patrick (24:14.317)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (24:33.891)
Yes.
Susan Schramm (24:43.289)
And that's as if I was a failure. identifying with that mistake is the hard part.
Josh Patrick (24:51.256)
So Susan, unfortunately, we are out of time. And for those who are listening or still with us, this conversation has actually been about resilience, which is one of the six areas we're investigating. So when you take a look at mistakes and you take a look at risk and you take a look at change, the underlying skill you need to develop, at least in my opinion, for all this stuff is resilience.
I'm interested in your opinion, so why don't you drop a comment below and let us know what you think. And you're at the Long Strange Trip podcast. We're with Susan Schramm. This is Josh Patrick. Thanks a lot for stopping by. I hope to see you back here next week.
Outro:
Thanks for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate you being part of this journey. I'd be grateful if you leave an honest rating and review. It helps other people find these conversations. Lets me know what's landing with you and what isn't. If you love this show, give us five stars, and if you hate it, give it one star and I'll just cry a little bit.
Keep asking the hard questions, keep being honest about what's difficult, and remember. We're all just trying to figure this out together.
I'll talk to you next time on the Long Strange Trip. Thanks for stopping by.
