The Long Strange Trip Episode 13: The Compassionate Role of Death Doulas with Jeffrey Deckman
About the Episode:
Making Peace with the Finish Line: A Talk with Jeffrey Deckman
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how we handle the end. In our world, we’re so busy running—building businesses, chasing goals, just staying upright—that we treat death like a rude interruption we can just ignore if we don’t look at it.
But ignoring it doesn’t make it go away; it just makes us lonelier when it shows up.
I recently sat down on the Long Strange Trip podcast with my friend Jeffrey Deckman. Jeffrey is a death doula. If that term sounds a bit "out there" or makes you feel a little twitchy, I get it. But after talking to him, I suspect we need people like him now more than ever.
What Exactly is a Death Doula?
Think of a doula not as a medical person, but as a "compassionate companion." They sit outside that whole rigid medical system we’re all used to. Jeffrey explained that his job isn't about protocols or vitals; it’s about holding space.
When someone is nearing the end, things get messy—emotionally, spiritually, and relationally. A doula stays in that mess with the family. They aren't there to "fix" death (because you can't), but to make sure nobody has to walk through that door alone or in the dark.
The Problem with the "Medical Industrial Complex"
We got into a pretty deep dive about how our doctors are trained. For the most part, the medical world sees death as a failure. If they can’t keep the heart beating, they’ve lost.
But is prolonging the struggle always a win?
Jeffrey works at a hospice facility called Alive, and he sees the difference every day. There’s a massive contrast between the sterile, beeping chaos of a hospital and the humane, quiet transition of hospice. One tries to fight nature; the other honors it.
I have to wonder: Why are we so terrified of letting go that we’d rather choose a "sterile" end over a peaceful one?
The Liminal Space: That Weird "In-Between"
We talked about something Jeffrey calls the "liminal space"—that thin margin between life and what comes next.
I’ll admit, I had some hang-ups here. I asked him if things like medical aid in dying (MAID) might "cheat" someone out of that sacred transition. But Jeffrey’s perspective was incredibly grounding. Whether death comes naturally or with a little help to end suffering, he’s seen that the experience remains one of being embraced. He shared a story about a man’s near-death experience that honestly changed how I view the "exit" entirely. It’s less about a clinical ending and more about a profound, loving transition.
Why This Matters to You (and Me)
Jeffrey didn't just wake up one day and decide to do this. He’s a stage four cancer survivor. He’s watched his father pass and stood by his brother during a brutal battle with ALS. He knows what chronic pain feels like, and he knows what grief looks like from the inside.
I’m 73 now. I know I have a lot less life ahead of me than I do behind me. And while that's disconcerting, talking to people like Jeffrey makes it feel a little less like a cliff and more like a journey.
If we can stop viewing death as a medical defeat and start seeing it as a natural, albeit difficult, part of being human, maybe we can actually show up for each other when it counts.
What about you? Have you ever thought about who you’d want in your corner when the clock starts winding down?
Transcription:
Introduction (Josh)
Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm Josh. the host of the show. We're going to dig into six areas together, finding real work-life integration. Instead of that brutal 9 to 5 5 split too many business owners to live with. We're going to approach retirement as an actual reinvention. Rather than just stopping work. and we're facing death honestly, and avoiding PTSD around it. We're also building resilience,
when life throws us curve balls. We're sharing wisdom across generations. And finally, we're understanding the patterns that show up in all our transitions. I'm not coming at this as an expert I'm a fellow traveler figuring this stuff out in real time.
Especially now as I navigate my own dual cancer diagnosis at 73.
Welcome to the Long Strange Trip. I'm glad you're here.
Josh Patrick (00:01.196)
Hey, how are you today? Welcome to the Lung Strain Strip podcast. And for the second episode in a row, we're going to talk about death. What an exciting topic that is. My guest today is Jeffrey... What's your last name, Jeffrey? Deckman. Sorry about that. I have no memory for anything anymore. Our guest is Jeffrey Deckman. He is a death doula. Now, I'm not really quite sure what a death doula is or what they do.
Jeff (00:18.419)
Deckman.
That's right.
Josh Patrick (00:31.254)
So I'm going to bring Jeffrey on and we can start that conversation there and we'll all become informed. So, hey Jeffrey, how are you today?
Jeff (00:42.087)
I'm doing well. How are you?
Josh Patrick (00:44.066)
I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming on. Can we start off, would you just kind of give us a background of what a death duel is and a bit of a history of where it came from?
Jeff (00:46.591)
You're welcome.
Jeff (00:57.329)
Yeah, death doulas or they're also called end of life doulas, just to kind of take the edge off. Either one is completely fine. But what they are, they are people who show up outside of hospice. And basically what we do is we're kind of considered midwives.
don't have professional medical training, but we've got a lot of training on spirituality, consciousness, end of life conditions and transitions. And our main goal is to work with those who are at the end of their lives and their caregivers to help them in a variety of ways that they need. Dulas do not show up with a particular agenda.
What we do is we hold space, we create a container for people to express themselves, have their experience and answer questions. A lot of what we do is listening and hearing where they are, what need they might have, and then look to see what we can do to gently and gracefully assist them through their process.
Josh Patrick (02:18.286)
And when do you usually get involved with a patient? Do you call your clients patients or do you call them clients or do call them?
Jeff (02:27.551)
patience, yeah, kind of friends, but yeah, pretty much patience. It depends on when they or their family want to reach out. You know, some doula relationships last for several months and others are several weeks and sometimes you get in right at the end and you know, it's several days. So it really depends upon when the person reaches out.
I happen to do most of my work at a hospice facility called Alive. And I go there once a week for a couple of hours, actually Thursday evenings, I was there last night. And what I do is there's about 30 different rooms, each with an individual who is in there. And by the time they get to Alive, they typically have about maybe two weeks before the end.
Josh Patrick (03:25.006)
So is alive, I'm assuming is a hospice facility which helps families or helps people who are dying and being at home is too much for the family. Am I correct?
Jeff (03:40.393)
Yeah, right. Being at home, being in the hospital, and when it's just to the point to where they can't really be in any other place outside of a place that's able to help support them through the final stages of their transition. So they need to be able to medicate them, need to be able to keep them comfortable. And the place I volunteer at is just
absolutely incredible with the amount of compassion that everybody shows every one of the patients who come in there. It's a very sacred place when you enter into it.
Josh Patrick (04:20.49)
It seems that with the exception of the medical industrial complex and ICUs and nursing homes, that hospice seems to be a very humane way to go through the end of your life.
Jeff (04:36.595)
You know, it really is. And the difference between hospice and doulas are that hospice still operates within the medical structure. So, you know, their services are covered by Medicaid, et cetera. So they have certain things that they can and can't do that doulas can fit in and provide services for, you know, like we, a lot of times we will sign up right.
to work with a particular individual. we'll run errands for them. We'll sit with the patient while the caregiver goes and does what they need to do or just even have a break. So we fit in at a different place. And like I said, we don't do medications. We don't do treatments. And we're just there to support at a human level and free from any type of Medicaid or
We're outside of the industrial medical complex, which at its core is really pretty brutal. It's a tough way to go.
Josh Patrick (05:40.366)
Well, it's a horrible way to go. And unfortunately, nursing homes and ICU seem to be the
main way people leave this world, not an alternate way. I wish it was different, but it's really, you one of the things we're working on with this project is death without PTSD. And the truth is, if you're in one of those institutions, you're already have PTSD from being there. And it's really a sad thing that families don't understand.
that there are other alternatives, those other alternatives are probably a more humane way for their loved ones to leave this world.
Jeff (06:29.887)
Well, know, they have two things working against them. When I say them, I mean a peaceful transition when they're in that system. And you know, you're in a hospital, there's lights, there's noises, there's beeping, there are nurses that are, you know, most likely overworked, overstressed, and just a lot of activity. And also the mentality in the medical community is to save the life. They consider death as a loss.
That's really contrary to how human beings for thousands of years have viewed death. Death is a very natural stage of life. as a doula, you really learn and you teach people how to reconnect with the natural process of it, the beauty of it, the grace of it. One of the things that we say is death does not hurt.
all the treatments, all the diseases, all the things you get beforehand. That's where the pain comes in. But the actual experience of death is an incredibly peaceful process. And that's what we help remind people of and help educate them about. And, you know, on a good day, guide them through that.
Josh Patrick (07:46.19)
So what got you into this sort of work? I'm kind of curious about people who decide they're going to become duelists.
Jeff (07:54.321)
Yeah, well, I never expected to do it. I'll say that much. I've done a lot of spiritual and consciousness work for many decades, and that brought me connected into life itself and the miraculous nature of it. But then 10 years ago, actually 10 years ago this year, this month, I was diagnosed with stage four cancer. excuse me.
Josh Patrick (08:20.272)
What type?
What's the of cancer? that's an interesting one.
Jeff (08:24.093)
It was neck cancer. was small cell carcinoma started in the back of my tongue, went down into my lymph node, had a big tumor. And so I spent pretty much that year going through the treatments and the recovery of that. But when stage four cancer showed up for me, that's when I had to have my conversation with death, as I call it.
I say, know, death kind of pulled up a chair, flipped it around, sat down and said, you know, okay, we're going to have a discussion whether you want to or not. So it really caused me to look at so many things differently. And then the experience I had of going through the treatments taught me so much more about compassion and, you know, what chronic pain was and all that type of stuff. you know, that really shifted me. And then in 2020, I was with my father when he passed.
Josh Patrick (08:49.923)
Bye.
Jeff (09:19.027)
And that was a very, very powerful experience. I spent a couple of days with him. We were really close. He was down in Maryland. so I had that experience. then a year ago this month, my younger brother died from an ALS-like disease. Yeah, it was sad. He was such a beautiful man. then about in March, my wife
Josh Patrick (09:39.534)
I'm sorry about that.
Jeff (09:48.073)
just came to me one day and she said, have you ever thought of being a doula? And I said, well, no, because I don't know what one is. And I said, what is it? And she explained it to me and I said, no, don't want to do that. Like at all. Too scary, like felt too intimate, you know, to be around people that you don't know who are going through that. But anyway, I try to stay open to things that scare me.
I went to a presentation this woman was giving about doulas, and she's been doing it for probably 30 years. She's just a magical woman. And as I was sitting there going through it, I realized that I cried twice in that session. And it wasn't because any particular story she told. It was just like, I was just feeling like I need to find the strength to do this and serve people in that way. And that began my journey. She...
has a certification program that I'm in the last couple of weeks of. So I've been doing that and learning about the death and the dying process and the cultural thinking around that and just really how to break through it and free people from that medical death at the end that's really just so invasive and disruptive.
Josh Patrick (11:11.128)
Yeah, that's one of the things, you know, I'm trying with this project to stay neutral on almost everything. The one thing I am not staying neutral on, and I encourage everyone who's listening us to also not stay neutral on, is the medical industrial complex death. And I call it the medical industrial complex for a very specific reason, because it's not a whole lot different than military industrial complex.
I mean, the purpose of these gigantic hospitals is to stay open. They need to do that. And unfortunately, the last six months of life provides them with a tremendous amount of revenue and literally no benefit to the patient.
Jeff (11:58.045)
Right, you know, part of my training is to read a lot about this from people in the doula community. you know, there are some people that really have an axe to grind about the industrial medical complex. And, you know, for good reason, and like you, I try to stay in the center. I want to be aware. I want to acknowledge those things that I don't like, and I want to support those things that I do like.
It is absolutely brutal and so much of it is profit driven. mean, when someone's at the final, final stages of a form of cancer, to give them an operation or to give them another treatment instead of just backing up and allowing the process to take place. without demonizing many of the good women and men who are doctors and nurses, they're just trained that we need to save and death is a failure.
Josh Patrick (12:53.038)
Their paradigm that they live with is that a day extended in life is more important than a day extended in quality.
Jeff (13:06.631)
Yeah, it's just not true. I I saw my father suffer and my brother suffer greatly. And, you know, there was, I think in New York state, there's just a, there's some type of move to allow for assisted suicide.
Josh Patrick (13:12.056)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (13:22.156)
Yeah, that's medical aid and dying, which I'd like to talk about a little bit later on if we have time. But yes, they just signed the medical aid and dying law in New York state. That's been what I've been looking for, but I've been having an issue with that. My issue is that, and I'm not sure it's a real issue or it's a made up issue in my head.
Jeff (13:40.255)
Hmm.
Josh Patrick (13:48.248)
But it's one of these things where I'm asking everybody involved in the death community, do you have an answer for this? And so far I've not had one, but we'll try with you. Is that there's a space when we die, I call it the liminal space, a space between when you're alive and when you're not alive. And in that space, generally you have conversations with people who aren't in the room. You might have experiences with that. I think that is a sacred part of dying.
in my opinion, I think it's something that's really, really important. I have no proof for why it is or it isn't. It's just one of those feelings I have that is something that this is a big deal and we should pay attention to it. My issue with medical aid and dying is do you lose that liminal space? Because when you do medical aid and dying, you are essentially...
knocking off that, you know, the period of moving between life and death. Death comes very quickly and it's not painful. It's not anything wrong with that. It's just I'm wondering, do you lose that liminal space? Do you have any thoughts about that?
Jeff (15:02.707)
Yes, to me the only difference is how much time you spend packing before you move, right? I mean, you're moving anyway. And if you spend three weeks packing, at the time that you're ready to go, my belief and just backed up by a lot of first story.
Josh Patrick (15:14.147)
Yes.
Jeff (15:27.613)
conversations that if we have time, I'll share one with you. I just had two weeks ago with an individual who had a near death and, you know, and either way we are met, we are embraced and we are shepherded to that realm. So it's just like if you were killed immediately in a car accident, you don't just like wander around, you know, your guides, your angels, your ancestors, whatever it is you wanna.
call them and whoever shows up, they will be there to bring you, but it's just the time is different. So either way, we're going to be embraced and that experience is going to be unbelievably loving beyond anything we've ever experienced or can experience here. And we will be taken care of, but it's just a matter of how much packing and moving time we have.
Josh Patrick (16:21.73)
So you recently had an experience with someone who had a near-death experience?
Jeff (16:28.127)
Yeah, it was three weeks ago and I was doing my rounds at a live and I went into this one room and there was a gentleman in there. He was only 72. I'm 69. So that's, you know, close for me. Yeah. And he was clearly weeks. I figured weeks away, which is kind of long. A lot of times I go into people and they're already, you know, under.
Josh Patrick (16:40.398)
Right, yeah, I'm 73, so.
Jeff (16:54.949)
So, but we had a good conversation and he had a little bit of edge to him. He was spicy. You know, we talked about the rascal he was when he was much younger and how he was glad that he grew out of that. And the more we talked, the more he opened. that's what happens as a doula. You show up, you know, and just like, hey, you know, I'm a volunteer. I'm here to help. Anything I can do. And sometimes it's a two minute conversation. Sometimes it's one that the more you talk, the more you connect, the more they open. And he said that,
Three weeks prior, he had a heart attack, near-death experience, and as he was in the hospital bed, as they were working on him, he had it when he was in the hospital. He said, the only way I can explain it is that these pastel people showed up. And he said, they were the kindest, softest, most beautiful beings I'd ever encountered. And all I felt was love.
and acceptance, and he said, I knew what they were there for. And then this was kind of funny. He chuckled at it, and I did too. said, but then after a couple of moments, they looked and he said, they almost apologized to me because they said, we came here too early. So you're not coming with us. So we're going to go away, but we will be back. And he said, and they just vanished. And I said, what did?
How did that affect you? Did that change your thinking about death, dying, et cetera? And he said, well, I've always believed that since energy doesn't vanish, it just transforms, that I would exist somehow. But that experience was so intimate and so real to me, I now knew where I was going. And he said, actually, right now, I'm kind of excited to go there because
that feeling I had I've never experienced before and I've never felt safer. And as I said, I go there every week and then I went back the following Thursday and he had passed in between. And it kind of shocked me. I really felt a friendship with him and I was saddened by it. But you never know when you're gonna go, but he was just...
Jeff (19:18.379)
so moved by that experience. And in fact, last night I was speaking with a woman who was next to her husband and he was dying, Parkinson's disease, only 67. And all of a sudden the opportunity to come up to share that story with her. And I could just see the comfort it gave her about, okay, that's where he's got, and the fact that I got it first person from this individual was really powerful.
And obviously all this work affects my level of gratitude, how I live and see people in the world and myself and my path. How much runway do I have? We never know, but it's really been a powerful experience to be able to be in that sacred space with those people at that time.
Josh Patrick (20:12.582)
I agree with that. I have had several conversations with people who have had near-death experiences, and they're almost all... They're not the same, but they rhyme.
Jeff (20:26.473)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Josh Patrick (20:27.7)
And it's also true, by the way, for people like me who have had out-of-body experiences. Very similar also, You know, I've had some things happen in my life that really there's no good explanation for, but they're very similar to the peace that you feel or people say you feel with a near-death experience. And...
Jeff (20:37.566)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (20:57.666)
That's why I believe there's this liminal space. I don't know what happens after you go through the liminal space. You you might get sorted, maybe your energy just dissipates and reconstructs in some way or other. You know, that's not knowable, I guess.
Jeff (21:16.563)
Well, there is an absolutely fascinating book. read it probably 20 years ago when I was starting to explore and starting to understand more about reincarnation and those types of things. It's called Journey of Souls. It is
absolutely phenomenal written by a clinical psychologist who used hypnosis to take people back into early childhood times to find the source of their trauma, do a healing, and then it helps them in their current age. And one of the individuals that he was doing that with actually he regressed so far back into where he started talking about where he was before he came in here to this life.
And the man was so fascinated by it that, and he always documented and transcribed all of his sessions. So he ended up then just specializing on that. And the book is, I think it's 17 or 27, there's a seven in there, different individual stories of people's descriptions of what happens in that time between lives. And it's absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
and
Josh Patrick (22:27.512)
So how did he get that description? Because you're assuming you're passing through that space and then you're dead.
Jeff (22:37.523)
Your body is. Your body is, but you as soul are not.
Josh Patrick (22:37.832)
Excuse me? Right. I just I agree with that. But my question is, how did he get his information from the people who were dead?
Jeff (22:52.767)
What happened was he would have a patient who was working on a trauma and he would do deep hypnosis that took him. He was doing regression therapy and that one person crossed over into this pre-life space and was able to describe in real detail. And then he had other patients that were able to describe and there was
Josh Patrick (22:58.753)
Okay.
Josh Patrick (23:02.158)
He was doing regression therapy.
Yes.
Jeff (23:21.695)
a decent amount of similarity and a lot of things that rhymed with it. And I've studied a lot of the Eastern religions and philosophies and what have you and a lot of post-life experiences that people have had. it was just so many first-person stories that talk about how the soul went at
it leaves where it goes and what it's like when you die and the process you go through and you know the way you view your spirituality, your religion, yourself and what you think will happen to you when you pass is factored into, they say it's factored into the experience you have when you first cross over and die.
So if you're a Hindu and you have a certain expectation, you show up like that. If you're Christian, you show up like that, whatever. And then eventually, what's that? What you're, if you're a nothing, then from that point, they don't have any reprogramming to do because there is a reality that is beyond any individual religion because religion is just man's
Josh Patrick (24:22.504)
What if you're a nothing? What if you're a nothing?
Jeff (24:42.909)
man's attempt to use its mind to define something that the mind does not experience or understand.
Josh Patrick (24:52.418)
So do do's get involved in guided journeys at all because that's become, in my opinion, a really important therapeutic tool.
Jeff (25:03.357)
What do you mean by guided journey?
Josh Patrick (25:04.622)
I mean, the kind of journeys you're working with a therapist who uses some sort of hallucinogenic agent, psilocybin, ayahuasca, right?
Jeff (25:15.031)
right. Not as a doula. I'm sure people who do that are also doulas, and doulas do that. But the role of the doula is not to do that. if you're a doula, it doesn't preclude you from doing that.
Josh Patrick (25:35.946)
I have a person I worked with when I did it. Her next stage in life is to be a Dua. Right now she's an IFS therapist, internal family systems therapist, which is kind of an interesting thing all by itself.
Jeff (25:45.842)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (25:51.998)
Yeah, well, you know, what would happen would be she would probably really pick up on the doula process and the energy that is part of that very quickly.
Josh Patrick (26:03.15)
Yeah, I think she already has that and she's in the process of making the transition in her professional life. mean, there's some duals like you, I'm assuming you work as a volunteer.
Jeff (26:09.789)
Yeah.
Jeff (26:14.559)
Yeah, eventually, you know, when I start to do, when I start doing personal home visits, then that's something I would charge for.
Josh Patrick (26:24.974)
Okay, and how much does a dual generally charge?
Jeff (26:29.602)
Depending, it's a range, know, psychomach does a consultant charge, right? But a dual charge is between like maybe $75, $150 an hour.
Josh Patrick (26:33.675)
Right, well it does be range, but...
Josh Patrick (26:38.894)
Okay, not a terrible amount of money, but for many it's unaffordable, unfortunately.
Jeff (26:45.759)
Yeah, it's yeah, all these things are always affordability. And there's a lot of doulas who, you you might start out with someone or someone who can't afford to pay you, but you decide to take it on anyway, because it's not, yeah, this is not a profit. Like, I couldn't imagine doing enough doula work to make a living. those who do,
Josh Patrick (27:02.798)
All right, let's.
Josh Patrick (27:08.085)
Edge it.
Thank you.
Jeff (27:13.983)
do training classes and seminars and sessions and that type of stuff in addition to their at-home work.
Josh Patrick (27:20.92)
So we just have a couple of minutes left, Jeffrey. What is the training that you go through to become a Dua?
Jeff (27:28.063)
Well, the woman I work with, her name is Jade Appgate. it is, she lives here in right around Nashville. So she is, she does, has a very powerful online course that's very, very extensive. It's not, it doesn't make your brain hurt. And she has, there's
Six different sessions, you can go as many as nine, but to get certified at six sessions. And each session has a series of modules to it and each module has a test out on it. And then she also, I mentor with her, apprentice under her a couple of times a month. And it's really quite, it's a very impressive program and she is very impressive herself.
Josh Patrick (28:24.014)
cool. Well, Jeffrey, unfortunately, we're out of time. And it kind of goes by fast every time I do one of these things, or it feels that way to me. So how would folks find you and are you willing to have conversations with people who are interested in exploring what a Dula is and maybe want to use the services of a Dula?
Jeff (28:45.641)
Sure. First of all, let me give you the website for Jade's work. It's farewelleducation.com.
Josh Patrick (28:53.858)
Farewell as in B-A-R-E. Farewell. Farewell as in goodbye. Okay.
Jeff (28:56.101)
Farewell as in goodbye. Yeah, yeah. Her name is Jade Appgate and she's the best of the best. If someone doesn't want to get in touch with me, you can email me at Jeffrey, J-E-F-F-R-E-Y, at jeffredeckman.com.
Josh Patrick (29:05.143)
Okay.
Josh Patrick (29:09.358)
Check. Check.
Josh Patrick (29:17.298)
And I have one thing I'd like you to do besides give us a rating review, which I asked for in the outro here, is that if you're watching or listening to this podcast episode and you think you might make a good guest and you have something interesting you'd like to talk about that fits in one of our six series of investigation for the long strange trip, as you see, you know, talking about death didn't hurt that much and it wasn't that painful.
Jeff (29:22.253)
Okay.
Josh Patrick (29:45.622)
It was kind of a nice, easy conversation. So that's how we like to do it here. So if you're interested, please send me an email at jpatrick at stage2solution.com. That's a number two in solution is singular. jpatrick at stage2solution.com. I'll send you a link. We'll set up a time to talk and see if being a guest on the Long Strange Trip podcast is right for you. So this is Josh Patrick. We're with Jeffrey Deckman.
You're at the Long Streams Trip podcast, which I've already said three times. I hope to see you back here really soon. Thanks a lot for coming by.
Josh Outro:
Thanks for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate you being part of this journey. I'd be grateful if you leave an honest rating and review. It helps other people find these conversations. Lets me know what's landing with you and what isn't. If you love this show, give us five stars, and if you hate it, give it one star and I'll just cry a little bit.
Keep asking the hard questions, keep being honest about what's difficult, and remember. We're all just trying to figure this out together.
I'll talk to you next time on the Long Strange Trip. Thanks for stopping by.
